← The Peter Attia Drive

#93 - AMA with Jason Fried: Work-life balance, avoiding burnout, defining success, company culture, and more

Feb 17, 2020 2h 7m 77 insights
<p>In my <a href="https://peterattiamd.com/jasonfried/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">first interview</a> with Jason Fried, Jason explained his overall philosophy about work-life balance and how exactly he optimizes for efficiency. For this special follow-up AMA, we've decided to release the full episode to everyone (including non-subscribers), so all can hear Jason answer questions from listeners that dive deeper into topics such as work-life balance, the role of luck versus hard work in success, specifics around Basecamp's unique process-oriented approach to projects, <span class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date">4-day</span> work weeks, practical tips for people searching for the right company culture, tips on writing and parenting, and a whole bunch more.</p> <ul dir="auto"> <li> <p dir="auto">If Jason had taken his own advice about work-life balance at the start of his career, would he have achieved the same level of success? [2:05];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">What is Jason's definition of success, and what is he optimizing for? [10:10];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">Basecamp's policy on email and expectations for a quick response, and why Jason believes in sleeping on big decisions [14:30];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">How Jason implements "true" work-life balance in his life and at Basecamp [19:15];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">Does work and life have to be separated in order to have balance? [32:00];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">How Jason makes time the fixed component to avoid the compulsion to keep pushing forward on a project perpetually [34:15];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">Jason's tip for physicians who may be facing burnout [45:00];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">Signs of "burnout" if you do the same thing for work and pleasure, and tips to avoid and manage that feeling [49:45];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">Is a <span class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date">40-hour</span> work week the correct amount? [53:45];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">How to evaluate a company's culture when looking for a job with the right work environment [59:00];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">Jason's take on salaries and alternate incentives like equity, profit sharing, etc. [1:06:45];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">What traits does Jason look for when hiring new employees? [1:13:45];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">Does Jason believe in process-oriented work or outcome-driven work, and Basecamp's unique process for completing projects [1:16:15];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">How does Jason handle a project that results in a failure? [1:20:00];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">Advice for people in situations where they don't have full control of their time and work demands [1:23:50];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">How much of success should be attributed to skill versus luck? [1:29:30];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">The importance of writing skills, and tip to improve your writing [1:43:15];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">Lessons learned from parenting, and Peter's top priority when it comes to raising kids [1:52:15];</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">An important skill: the ability to say "no" to things [2:01:15]; and</p> </li> <li> <p dir="auto">More.</p> </li> </ul> <p>Learn more: <a href="https://peterattiamd.com/">https://peterattiamd.com/</a><br /> <br /> Show notes page for this episode: <a href="https://peterattiamd.com/jasonfriedama">https://peterattiamd.com/jasonfriedama</a><br /> <br /> Subscribe to receive exclusive subscriber-only content: <a href="https://peterattiamd.com/subscribe/">https://peterattiamd.com/subscribe/</a><br /> <br /> Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: <a href="https://peterattiamd.com/newsletter/">https://peterattiamd.com/newsletter/</a><br /> <br /> Connect with Peter on <a href="http://Facebook.com/PeterAttiaMD"><u>Faceboo</u></a><u>k</u> | <a href="http://Twitter.com/PeterAttiaMD"><u>Twitter</u></a> | <a href="http://Instagram.com/PeterAttiaMD"><u>Instagram</u></a>.<br />  </p>
Actionable Insights

1. Define Your Optimization Goals

Take time to clearly define what you are optimizing for in life and work (e.g., wealth, impact, happiness, sustainability), as this clarity is essential for making informed decisions.

2. Practice Saying No

Cultivate the ability to say ’no,’ especially to future commitments, as saying ‘yes’ too easily can lead to an overloaded schedule, increased stress, and regret later on.

3. Shorten Scheduling Horizon

Reduce anxiety by shortening your scheduling horizon, aiming to schedule only a month out rather than a year, to maintain flexibility and avoid the stress of long-term commitments.

4. Embrace Daydreaming & Boredom

Allow yourself to be bored and daydream at work, as this provides mental rest and can foster new ideas, rather than feeling compelled to constantly fill every moment with tasks.

5. Set No Immediate Response Expectation

Cultivate a norm where immediate responses are not expected, allowing individuals to focus on their current tasks and respond to messages when they are ready, not instantly.

6. Sleep on Important Decisions

For important decisions, especially those arising in the latter half of the day, practice delaying them until the next morning to approach them with a fresh mind and avoid rushed choices.

7. Schedule Morning Decisions

Allocate mornings for making important decisions when cognitive function is typically at its best, and defer significant choices that arise in the afternoon until the following day.

8. Reclaim Personal Time

Institute a personal practice of reclaiming equivalent hours during the workday for life-specific activities (e.g., gym, daydreaming) whenever you work outside of designated work hours.

9. Make Home Office Inconvenient

Intentionally make your home office less convenient to access or use, creating a physical barrier that discourages slipping into work outside of designated hours.

10. Use Tools to Enforce Work Boundaries

Utilize software features or personal settings (like ‘Work Can Wait’ in Basecamp) to prevent work notifications from reaching you outside of your set work hours, creating a physical separation from work tools.

11. Identify Areas of Control

Assess your situation to distinguish between what you can control (e.g., your own behavior, local team environment) and what you cannot, to focus your efforts effectively.

12. Model Desired Behavior

Reflect on your own behavior, such as constant interruptions, and consider how changing your actions can positively influence those around you and reduce perpetuating negative workplace patterns.

13. Be the Change

Focus on implementing the changes you wish to see in your environment within your own local sphere of influence, rather than trying to change things you cannot.

14. Seek ‘Enough’ Not Maximum

Instead of constantly striving for maximization (e.g., revenue, employees), focus on finding the ‘right amount’ or ’enough’ that feels balanced and sustainable for your goals and well-being.

15. Assess Job Enjoyment & Challenge

Regularly evaluate your job satisfaction by asking if you enjoy your daily work, like your colleagues, and feel intellectually and creatively challenged, as these are key indicators of success beyond financial metrics.

16. Optimize Work Hour Productivity

Ensure that your designated work hours are spent productively on tasks that align with your personal definition of success, rather than solely chasing financial gains.

17. Allow Life to Take Over Work

Recognize that true work-life balance requires flexibility from both sides; intentionally allow personal life activities to take precedence over work from time to time, as work often dominates by default.

18. Take Breaks for Fresh Perspective

Step away from projects to gain perspective, allowing your mind to rest and approach the work with a fresh outlook the next morning, rather than pushing through.

19. Ruthlessly Cut Scope

Prioritize cutting scope to release projects sooner and iterate later, rather than continuously adding features, to avoid complications and delays.

20. Fix Time, Adjust Scope

Set a fixed time limit for projects (e.g., six weeks) and then adjust the scope to fit within that constraint, forcing prioritization of what is truly important and necessary.

21. Wield the Scope Hammer

Actively use a ‘scope hammer’ to break down large projects into smaller, manageable pieces that can be fully comprehended and completed within defined timeframes.

22. Separate Projects with Breaks

Allow projects to finish and provide a break or reprieve before starting new ones, preventing scope creep and team burnout.

23. Adopt an Infinite Game Mindset

Approach work with an ‘infinite game’ mindset, optimizing for long-term sustainability, team well-being, and the ability to continue doing projects with passion, rather than just short-term project outcomes.

24. Communicate Exceptions Clearly

If you must push a team hard for an exceptional, urgent project, clearly communicate that this is an unusual circumstance and not the new norm, to maintain trust and prevent burnout.

25. Prioritize Sustainable Process

Shift focus from solely outcome-driven work to prioritizing a sustainable and humane process, recognizing that achieving results at the cost of team morale and well-being is ultimately not worth it in the long run.

26. Implement Structured Work Breaks

Integrate structured breaks (e.g., two weeks) between intense work cycles (e.g., six weeks) for internal freelancing, refining existing work, or exploring new ideas, allowing for recharge and creative freedom.

27. Focus on ‘How’ Work is Done

Encourage a mindset that emphasizes the process and methods of doing work, not just the final outcome, to ensure sustainable practices and prevent internal damage to teams or codebases.

28. Redefine Failure: Don’t Lie to Self

Redefine failure not as a product or project not meeting expectations, but as continuing to invest effort into something you know is not going to succeed, or lying to yourself about its true potential.

29. Practice Healthy Loss Cutting

Develop the discipline to cut losses on underperforming projects or ventures at an appropriate point, as this is a healthy practice that prevents wasted effort and resources.

30. Communicate Clearly Under Duress

During critical situations or emergencies, adhere to strict communication guidelines: be extremely honest, clear, coherent, brief yet detailed, and avoid emotional language or jargon to keep stakeholders informed without adding stress.

31. Focus on Doing Your Best

Regardless of beliefs about luck or free will, concentrate on consistently doing your best work and don’t overly worry about the ultimate reasons for success or failure, as these are often unknowable.

32. Stop Taking Undue Credit

Cultivate humility by recognizing the numerous factors (upbringing, opportunities, luck) that contribute to success, and avoid taking excessive personal credit for achievements.

33. Focus on Achievement, Not Credit

Prioritize achieving goals and making an impact without concern for who receives credit, as this mindset can foster greater collaboration and effectiveness.

34. Prioritize Strong Writing Skills

Develop and prioritize strong writing skills, as they are often indicative of clear thinking and are highly valued in many professional environments, leading to better performance.

35. Writing Skills Are Improvable

Believe that writing, like any skill, can be significantly improved through dedicated practice and learning, rather than viewing it as an innate talent.

36. Read Great Writers

Improve your writing by regularly reading the work of great communicators like Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, and Jeff Bezos (for business writing), or Annie Dillard (for short stories), to learn from their clarity and style.

37. Practice Editing for Conciseness

Improve writing by practicing editing: start with a longer piece (e.g., three pages), then condense it into progressively shorter versions (one page, three paragraphs, one paragraph, one sentence) to master conciseness.

38. Be Concise in Writing

Strive for conciseness in writing by using the fewest words necessary to convey your message effectively, avoiding unnecessary verbiage.

39. Read Your Writing Aloud

Read your written work aloud to assess its rhythm, flow, and clarity, helping you identify awkward phrasing, repetitive sentence structures, and areas for improvement in texture and sound.

40. Foster Investment, Avoid Force

Recognize that forcing people (or children) to do things against their will is ineffective; instead, focus on finding ways to make them feel invested and good about what they are doing to achieve better outcomes.

41. Adopt a Long-Game Parenting Mindset

Approach parenting with a long-term perspective, understanding that individual failures or bad moments are less significant than consistent effort over time, and avoid excessive self-recrimination.

42. Be Transparent About Mistakes

Practice transparency with your children (or team members) about your own mistakes, acknowledging your faults and committing to improvement, which can diffuse shame and model ownership.

43. Limit Social Media Access

Restrict your social media engagement by deleting apps from your phone and only checking messages via a web interface occasionally, to reduce passive consumption and constant distraction.

44. Seek ‘Cone of Silence’ on Social Media

If possible, utilize or advocate for social media features that allow you to broadcast content without seeing replies, creating a ‘cone of silence’ to protect yourself from negative interactions and abuse.

45. Control Email Response Time

Take control over your email response times, especially for non-critical communications, as this is an area where you likely have more autonomy and can reduce personal stress.

46. Automate Common Email Responses

Create an autoresponder or a resource library (e.g., FAQs, top 10 resources) to automatically address frequently asked questions, deflecting common inquiries and saving time.

47. Recognize Burnout: Lost ‘Hook’

Identify signs of burnout in your hobbies or work by noticing if activities you once loved no longer hold the same interest or ‘hook,’ similar to overplaying a favorite album.

48. Watch for Loss of Motivation

Pay attention to a persistent lack of motivation or a general disinterest in starting tasks you once enjoyed, as this can be an early and subtle sign of burnout.

49. Procrastination Signals Burnout

View increased procrastination, especially for tasks you previously tackled eagerly, as a strong indicator that you might be experiencing burnout.

50. Diversify Hobbies, Avoid Monotony

If your hobby is similar to your work (e.g., coding), diversify your side projects to explore different aspects or applications of the skill, preventing monotony and burnout.

51. Implement Seasonal Shorter Workweeks

Consider implementing seasonal shorter workweeks (e.g., 32-hour, four-day weeks during summer) to provide employees with a break and enhance well-being, similar to childhood summer breaks.

52. Value Seasonal Work Shifts

Recognize the value of seasonal shifts in work schedules (e.g., four-day weeks only in summer) to maintain their special quality and prevent them from becoming mundane.

53. Culture is Consistent Behavior

Understand that true company culture is defined by consistent actions and behaviors, not by stated values or written policies, so observe what a company does rather than what it says.

54. Talk to Current Employees

To understand a company’s true culture and work environment, directly speak with current employees, as they can provide authentic insights into daily life there.

55. Probe Company Culture via Customer Service

Call a company’s customer service line to assess their customer values and, if comfortable, ask the representative directly about their experience working there to gain insight into the culture.

56. Network for Workplace Insights

Reach out to current or former employees on platforms like LinkedIn and politely request a brief phone call to learn about their experiences working at a company you’re considering.

57. Read Company Policies for Insight

Examine public company policies (e.g., terms of service, privacy policy) to gauge their commitment to clarity and user-friendliness, as this reflects their underlying values and how they communicate with people.

58. Ask: What Would Company Say No To?

During an interview, ask what the company would say ’no’ to, as the answer can reveal their priorities, boundaries, and what they truly value.

59. Ask About Support for Human Issues

Inquire about company policies and support for personal challenges like mental health days or family bereavement, as a thoughtful response indicates a more human-centered culture.

60. Avoid ‘Big Family’ Companies

Be wary of companies that describe themselves as ‘a big family,’ as this often implies an expectation of personal sacrifice and long hours rather than respecting individual boundaries and family time.

61. Good Companies Respect Family Time

Understand that truly good companies demonstrate respect for employees’ families by actively supporting time away from work and personal boundaries.

62. Seek Top-of-Market Pay

Prioritize seeking employment with companies that pay at the top of the market (e.g., 90th percentile rates), as this reduces financial stress and the need to constantly worry about salary.

63. Seek Transparent Role-Based Salaries

Look for companies with transparent, role-based salary structures that eliminate negotiation and bias, providing clarity and reducing stress related to compensation.

64. Be Realistic About Incentives

Be realistic about incentive programs; if a system consistently raises hopes but doesn’t deliver, it’s healthier to discontinue it rather than prolonging false expectations and disappointment.

65. Set Expectations Up Front

Always set clear expectations at the beginning of any agreement or project, including potential exit strategies, to allow for graceful disengagement if things don’t work out as planned.

66. Consider Alternative to Equity

Recognize that companies can offer alternatives to traditional equity, such as a percentage of sale price distributed to current employees, to share windfalls without the stress of stock options.

67. Beware Equity as Stressor

Be aware that equity compensation, particularly in private companies, can be a significant source of financial stress and anxiety due to its unpredictable value and inability to plan life around it.

68. Allow Time to Break Old Habits

When transitioning to a new environment, especially from a large or rigid organization, be patient with yourself and others, allowing ample time to unlearn old habits and adapt to new ways of working.

69. Coach New Hires on Culture

Actively coach new hires on the company’s cultural norms, especially regarding work-life balance, by explicitly stating what is not expected (e.g., working weekends) and offering support to break old habits.

70. Evaluate Time vs. Outcome

Recognize that simply putting in more time does not guarantee a better outcome; evaluate if extended hours are truly productive or just adding more work.

71. Write Concise Proposals

Adopt a practice of writing shorter, one or two-page proposals focusing on price and timeline, as this can significantly reduce work without negatively impacting success rates.

72. Embrace Time Constraints

View limited time as an advantage, as it can force simplification and faster execution, preventing projects from becoming overly complicated and delayed.

73. Shield Your Team

If you are in a leadership position, actively protect your team from excessive demands and unrealistic expectations coming from higher up to maintain their productivity and well-being.

74. Recognize Technology Trade-offs

Acknowledge that technology, despite being pitched as universally good, comes with significant negative impacts and trade-offs, especially concerning relationships and mental well-being.

75. Embrace Relief of Saying No

Recognize and embrace the sense of relief that comes from saying ’no’ to commitments you genuinely don’t want to do, reinforcing the positive impact of setting boundaries.

76. Read ‘Revising Prose’

To improve writing, read ‘Revising Prose’ (author not specified in transcript) which focuses on teaching how to construct effective sentences, the fundamental building blocks of good writing.

77. Explore Membership Benefits

To deepen your knowledge in health and wellness, consider subscribing to the membership program at peteratiyahmd.com/subscribe for in-depth content and additional benefits.