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#333 ‒ Longevity roundtable — the science of aging, geroprotective molecules, lifestyle interventions, challenges in research, and more | Steven Austad, Matt Kaeberlein, Richard Miller

Jan 27, 2025 2h 41m 85 insights
<p><a href="https://peterattiamd.com/longevityroundtable/?utm_source=podcast-feed&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_campaign=250127-pod-longevityroundtable&amp;utm_content=250127-pod-longevityroundtable-podfeed"> View the Show Notes Page for This Episode</a></p> <p><a href="https://peterattiamd.com/subscribe/?utm_source=podcast-feed&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_campaign=250127-pod-longevityroundtable&amp;utm_content=250127-pod-longevityroundtable-podfeed"> Become a Member to Receive Exclusive Content</a></p> <p><a href="https://peterattiamd.com/newsletter/?utm_source=podcast-feed&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_campaign=250127-pod-longevityroundtable&amp;utm_content=250127-pod-longevityroundtable-podfeed"> Sign Up to Receive Peter's Weekly Newsletter</a></p> <p>In this special episode of The Drive, Peter introduces a brand-new roundtable format. Joined by three renowned experts in longevity science—Steven Austad, Richard Miller, and Matt Kaeberlein—the group explores the rapidly evolving field of geroscience. Together, they dive deep into topics like the relationship between healthspan and lifespan, evaluating interventions like rapamycin and senolytics, the role of epigenetic changes in aging, and whether GLP-1 receptor agonists hold geroprotective potential. They also tackle major challenges in funding and public acceptance of longevity research including how geroprotective interventions might be tested in humans. Packed with nuanced debate, humor, and groundbreaking insights, this episode is a must-listen for anyone fascinated by the science of aging.</p> <p><strong>We discuss:</strong></p> <ul type="disc"> <li>The recent rise in public interest in longevity, misconceptions, and the link between healthspan and lifespan [3:45];</li> <li>Redefining healthspan, the US healthcare paradox, and separating longevity science from commercial hype [12:30];</li> <li>The need to redirect medical research from disease-specific models to aging-focused approaches [21:30];</li> <li>Proactive healthcare: rethinking health, disease, and the role of aging [30:00];</li> <li>Biologic age versus chronologic age, and the limitations and potential of epigenetic clocks [35:00];</li> <li>The utility and drawbacks of the "hallmarks of aging" as a framework for research and funding [49:30];</li> <li>The role of epigenetic changes in aging and the challenges of proving causality [56:45];</li> <li>The translational challenges of moving aging research from preclinical studies to human applications [1:03:45];</li> <li>Distinguishing between a biomarker of aging and aging rate indicators [1:17:15];</li> <li>The difficulties of translating longevity research in mice to humans, and the difficulties of testing interventions in humans [1:21:15];</li> <li>Exercise, aging, and healthspan: does exercise slow aging? [1:35:45];</li> <li>Are GLP-1 receptor agonists geroprotective beyond caloric restriction effects? [1:41:00];</li> <li>The role of senescent cells in aging, challenges with reproducibility in studies, and differing views on the value of current research approaches [1:46:15];</li> <li>How funding challenges and leadership in NIH and other institutes impact the advancement of aging-related research [2:00:15];</li> <li>Metformin: geroprotective potential, mechanisms, and unanswered questions [2:02:30];</li> <li>Canagliflozin and rapamycin as geroprotective molecules: mechanisms, dosing strategies, and longevity potential [2:10:45];</li> <li>Resveratrol and NAD precursors—a lack of evidence for anti-aging effects [2:22:45];</li> <li>The potential of parabiosis and plasmapheresis to slow aging, the challenges in translating mouse studies to humans, and possible design for human studies [2:29:45]; and</li> <li>More.</li> </ul> <p>Connect With Peter on <a href="https://twitter.com/PeterAttiaMD">Twitter</a>, <a href="https://www.instagram.com/peterattiamd/">Instagram</a>, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/peterattiamd/">Facebook</a> and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8kGsMa0LygSX9nkBcBH1Sg">YouTube</a></p>
Actionable Insights

1. Shift to Proactive Disease Prevention

Advocate for and adopt a proactive medical approach focused on preventing diseases by targeting the biology of aging, rather than a reactive approach that treats diseases only after they occur.

2. Integrate Medicine 2.0 and 3.0 Approaches

Implement a parallel approach combining Medicine 2.0 (treating established diseases) with Medicine 3.0 (proactive interventions targeting aging biology), viewing them as complementary rather than mutually exclusive.

3. Reallocate Research Funds to Aging Biology

Advocate for reallocating a greater proportion of research dollars from disease-specific treatments to foundational biology of aging, as this proactive investment could reduce the overall burden of late-life diseases.

4. Recognize Aging as Primary Risk Factor

Understand that biological aging is the greatest risk factor for most major causes of death, highlighting the critical need for increased research funding in this area.

5. Challenge Aging’s Immutability

Reject the widespread belief that aging is an unchangeable process; recognize that it is malleable and can be influenced through scientific interventions.

6. Focus on Healthspan Extension

Prioritize extending “healthspan” (the period of healthy life) rather than merely extending life in a frail state, which is the core goal of the aging field.

7. Reject Healthspan-Lifespan Trade-off

Dispel the misconception that one must choose between extending healthspan or lifespan, as evidence suggests they are linked and tend to improve together when targeting aging biology.

8. Avoid Calling Aging a Disease

Refrain from labeling aging as a disease, as it is a risk factor for many diseases, and doing so can confuse scientific discussion and policy.

9. Personalize Your Health Definition

Define “health” in terms of your individual ability to perform desired activities, recognizing that personal goals (e.g., gardening vs. heli-skiing) shape what a healthy life means.

10. Plan for Your Marginal Decade

Engage in the “marginal decade” exercise by identifying the most important physical, cognitive, emotional, and social activities you wish to maintain in the last decade of your life. This helps guide personalized health planning.

11. Model Economic Impact of Geroprotective Drugs

Conduct economic modeling to quantify the vast societal benefits of geroprotective drugs, such as increased workforce participation, delayed Medicare eligibility, and reduced healthcare spending.

Emphasize public education about the critical role of prevention in age-related diseases like Alzheimer’s, especially given the limited effectiveness of current treatments despite massive spending.

13. Focus on Aging Biology for Disease Defeat

Believe that defeating major age-related diseases like Alzheimer’s, cancer, and heart disease will ultimately come from understanding and targeting the biology of aging.

14. Address Immune Dysfunction in Aging

Recognize immune dysfunction as a critical factor contributing to poor health outcomes and mortality in older individuals, warranting proactive rejuvenation efforts.

15. Investigate Immune System Rejuvenation

Prioritize research and investment into understanding and proactively rejuvenating the immune system to combat age-related susceptibility to infections and other diseases.

16. Prioritize Scientific Rigor in Longevity

Navigate the longevity field by seeking out scientific rigor and being aware of the “huge gray area” between real science and “snake oil.”

17. Seek Mechanistic Connections for Interventions

Prioritize understanding the “why” behind observed correlations, seeking clear mechanistic connections for interventions, especially those preserved in humans, to build confidence in their efficacy.

18. Design Experiments to Test Causality

To advance understanding of complex biological processes, focus on designing specific experiments that can directly test causal relationships rather than relying solely on observational correlations.

19. Pursue Detailed Mechanistic Understanding

Avoid oversimplifying complex biological processes; instead, delve into specific changes within cell types and their interactions to gain a deeper, more productive understanding.

20. Distinguish Aging Biology from Disease Pathology

Understand that age-related diseases are downstream effects of biological aging, and interventions slowing aging may not be effective once a disease’s pathology has diverged mechanistically from the underlying aging process.

21. Develop “Speedometer” Aging Rate Indicators

Focus on developing “aging rate indicators” that can reliably and quickly show whether an intervention is slowing the aging process in youth, rather than just biomarkers that reflect accumulated age.

22. Differentiate Biomarkers, Aging Rate Indicators

Understand the difference between biomarkers (something that changes with age) and aging rate indicators (something that tells you how fast you are aging), as the latter is crucial for clinical trials.

23. Establish Confidence in Human Aging Rate Indicators

Focus on building robust evidence to establish confidence in human aging rate indicators, which is crucial for their acceptance by regulatory bodies like the FDA and their use in clinical trials.

24. Critically Evaluate Metformin Observational Studies

Exercise critical judgment when reviewing observational studies on metformin’s effects, as some may contain methodological flaws that invalidate their conclusions regarding mortality benefits.

25. Critically Examine Experimental Conditions and Conclusions

Always critically examine the experimental conditions and underlying causes of observed effects, as initial conclusions can be misleading if the baseline pathology is extreme and unrepresentative.

26. Question Long-Held Scientific Metaphors

Critically re-evaluate long-standing scientific metaphors or hypotheses, such as the Hayflick limit and its relation to aging, to avoid blindly following historical assumptions.

27. Avoid Oversimplifying Aging Mechanisms

Be cautious of oversimplified explanations for aging, such as the sole accumulation of senescent cells, as they can hinder productive scientific inquiry and lead to misleading conclusions.

28. Avoid Terminology Hiding Critical Thinking

Be cautious of scientific terminology that, while seemingly convenient, can “trap you into patterns of thought” that are nonproductive and misleading, preventing deeper investigation into complex biological details.

29. Encourage Open-Mindedness in Research Review

Promote a culture among scientific reviewers that values new ideas and approaches, rather than favoring incremental research or proposals that merely align with established frameworks.

30. Support Discovery Science Beyond Hallmarks

Advocate for and engage in more discovery science and “thinking outside the box” in aging research, as over-reliance on the “hallmarks of aging” may have prematurely narrowed the field.

31. Investigate Beyond Hallmarks List

Pursue research into promising areas of aging biology even if they are not explicitly listed as “hallmarks of aging,” as the current list may be incomplete and prematurely narrow the field.

32. Use Hallmarks for Communication, Not Dogma

Leverage the “hallmarks of aging” as a useful conceptual tool for communicating the idea of biological aging and its mechanistic basis, but avoid treating them as an exhaustive or dogmatic list.

33. Critically Evaluate “Hallmarks of Aging”

Approach the “hallmarks of aging” framework with critical thinking, recognizing that its widespread acceptance may sometimes hinder deeper mechanistic investigation and narrow the scope of research.

34. Recognize Hidden Aging Research in Other Fields

Understand that significant research related to aging, such as studies on senescence in cancer or Alzheimer’s, is being conducted across various NIH institutes, even if not explicitly categorized as “aging research.”

35. Realign Disease Funding for Geroprotection

Explore strategies to reallocate existing disease-specific research funds (e.g., NCI funding for cancer) towards investigating disease prevention through geroprotection, to overcome “turf war” issues.

36. Advocate for Aging Research

Support increased funding for foundational aging science by advocating to policymakers, as current lobbying efforts for aging research are significantly underrepresented compared to disease-specific groups.

37. Maintain Optimism for Aging Research

Despite historical underfunding and resistance, maintain optimism that the landscape for biological aging research funding and public support is beginning to shift positively.

38. Address Reactive Mindset in Research

Recognize that the reactive approach to disease is deeply ingrained in pharmaceutical, biomedical, and basic science research, and efforts are needed to shift this fundamental mindset.

39. Adopt Analog Healthspan Definition

Move beyond the binary medical definition of healthspan (free of disability/disease) to an analog, more nuanced understanding that allows for continuous discussion and measurement of health quality.

40. Communicate with “Healthspan” Concept

Utilize the concept of “healthspan” as a clear and useful term to communicate the goal of increasing the healthy period of life to a broader audience.

41. View Biological Age as Multi-faceted

Understand that “biological age” is not a single number but rather a composite of the ages of individual organs and systems (e.g., heart, liver, brain), reflecting overall health.

42. Evaluate Biologic Age Test Predictiveness

When considering biological age tests, question whether their results are more predictive of future years of life than chronological age, which currently remains the single best predictor.

43. Benchmark Biologic Age with Insurers

Consider the adoption of biological age clocks by life insurance companies for their actuarial algorithms as a strong indicator of their validity and practical utility.

44. Monitor Epigenetic Algorithm Advancements

Stay informed about the development of epigenetic algorithms, as they hold potential to eventually replace or complement many traditional biomarkers in measuring biological age.

45. Explore Targeted Epigenetic Modifications

Investigate and support the development of technologies for targeted epigenetic modifications, as they hold potential to modulate specific aspects of biological aging.

46. Investigate Identified Aging Rate Indicators

Explore the dozen or so identified aging rate indicators (e.g., changes in macrophage types, UCP-1 levels) that consistently change in slow-aging mice across various interventions, as these may translate to humans.

47. Conduct Thorough Human Health Evaluations

Recognize the value of comprehensive health evaluations in humans, as they can provide a rich understanding of health status that is often underestimated by animal researchers.

48. Acknowledge Mouse-to-Human Translation Challenges

Be aware that most interventions effective in mouse models do not directly translate to humans due to species differences, side effects, and other factors, necessitating careful human clinical trials.

49. Be Optimistic About Normative Aging Translation

Maintain cautious optimism that interventions and biomarkers targeting normative biological aging (as opposed to artificial disease models) are more likely to translate successfully from mice to humans.

50. Value Rodent Research as First Step

Appreciate the role of rodent-based research as a critical first step in drug development, even if it doesn’t guarantee human efficacy, as most successful human drugs have a foundation in such studies.

51. Test Aging Rate Indicators in Extreme Human Cohorts

Consider testing potential aging rate indicators in human cohorts with extreme differences in health behaviors (e.g., obese smokers vs. healthy exercisers) to identify signals of slowed aging, while acknowledging limitations regarding sensitivity.

52. Explore Epigenetic Algorithms for Mortality/Healthspan

Investigate epigenetic algorithms like Dunedin-Pace, which show correlations with mortality and healthspan metrics, as potential tools for assessing biological aging.

53. Observe Multi-systemic Aging in Long-Lived Animals

Learn from long-lived animal models (e.g., tiny dog breeds) where aging is slowed across multiple systems (cancer, neurodegenerative, digestive, joint diseases), indicating a broad impact on the aging process.

54. Prioritize Exercise for Quality of Life

Emphasize exercise for its profound impact on quality of life and healthspan, even if its direct effect on lifespan is perceived as small, as the improved quality justifies the effort.

55. Investigate Exercise-Induced Molecular Changes

Explore the molecular changes induced by exercise, such as increased GPLD1 (beneficial for brain neurogenesis) and Iresin (beneficial for fat), as these are also elevated in slow-aging mice.

56. Explore Overlap: Anti-Aging Drugs & Exercise

Investigate the shared molecular pathways and effects between anti-aging drugs and exercise, as some anti-aging drugs in mice show similar beneficial molecular changes to those induced by exercise.

57. Prioritize Convenient Drug Delivery for Research

For animal studies, favor drug formulations that allow for easy administration (e.g., mixed into food or water) over laborious methods like injections, to streamline research efforts.

58. Investigate Metformin’s Geroprotective Effects

Despite skepticism and methodological concerns in some studies, consider investigating metformin’s potential geroprotective effects due to consistent observational data suggesting reductions in dementia, cancer, and cardiovascular disease.

59. Consider Metformin for Diabetic Biological Aging

Recognize that metformin likely reduces biological aging in the context of diabetes by effectively managing diabetic symptoms, but its efficacy in non-diabetic individuals for anti-aging purposes is less clear.

60. Understand Metformin’s Cell-Specific Action

Investigate and understand the cell-specific mechanisms of action for drugs like metformin (e.g., concentration in liver and gut, but not muscle) to better predict their effects and potential side effects.

61. Focus on Organ/Tissue-Specific Drug Effects

Shift research focus from broad “body-wide” drug effects to detailed organ-specific and tissue-specific changes, and how these interact, to better understand mechanisms and target therapies.

62. Balance Mechanistic Understanding with Therapeutic Urgency

Recognize that while mechanistic understanding is valuable, it’s sometimes necessary to pursue promising therapies with suggestive evidence and low side effects, even before fully elucidating every cellular mechanism.

63. Consider Once-Weekly Rapamycin (Off-Label)

For off-label use of rapamycin for healthspan, a common practice among prescribing doctors is once-weekly dosing in the 3-10 milligram range, based on current understanding of side effects and efficacy.

64. Understand Rationale for Intermittent Rapamycin

Recognize that intermittent rapamycin dosing (e.g., once weekly) is hypothesized to reduce side effects by allowing trough levels to bottom out, thereby minimizing off-target effects on mTOR complex 2.

65. Be Aware of Daily Rapamycin Side Effects

Understand that daily rapamycin dosing may be associated with a higher likelihood of side effects like bacterial infections or mouth sores, while once-weekly dosing has shown side effect profiles similar to placebo in some trials.

66. Avoid Resveratrol for Longevity

Do not take resveratrol for longevity or anti-aging purposes, as there is no compelling scientific evidence to support its efficacy, despite its continued marketing and public interest.

67. Be Patient with Dispelling Misinformation

Recognize that it takes a long time to dispel widely accepted but unproven health claims (like resveratrol’s benefits), especially when there’s a profit motive, requiring patience and persistent communication of evidence.

68. Be Skeptical of NAD Boosters for Longevity

Approach NAD boosters (NR, NMN) with skepticism regarding their longevity benefits, as current evidence, including strong negative findings from the ITP, is not compelling despite conceptual plausibility.

69. Acknowledge Mixed Evidence for NAD Boosters

Understand that while NAD is a crucial molecule and its decline with age is plausible, the scientific data on whether boosting NAD through precursors increases lifespan or improves healthspan is “decidedly mixed.”

70. Question Value of Expensive Oral NAD Precursors

Be critical of expensive oral NAD precursors (NMN, NR), as data suggests they may break down to niacin in the gut, raising questions about their unique benefits over cheaper alternatives.

71. Consider Risks of NAD Boosters, Especially for Pets

Weigh the potential risks of NAD boosters, such as kidney inflammation and pathology observed in aged mice at high doses, and exercise caution, particularly when considering their use in companion animals.

72. Investigate Parabiosis/Plasma Exchange in Humans

Support detailed investigation into the potential benefits of parabiosis or plasma exchange in humans, as its efficacy could be a “game changer” given the existing medical infrastructure for transfusions.

73. Identify Specific Factors in Young/Old Blood

Focus scientific efforts on identifying the specific beneficial molecules or cells in young blood and detrimental factors in old blood, rather than relying on complex, non-specific interventions like parabiosis.

74. Expect Complex Blood-Based Rejuvenation Mechanisms

Anticipate that any benefits from blood-based rejuvenation strategies (like parabiosis) will likely stem from a complex combination of factors, rather than a single molecule, given the difficulty in identifying simple mechanisms.

75. Consider Therapeutic Plasma Exchange for Aging

Explore therapeutic plasma exchange (replacing old plasma with albumin) as a logistically simpler starting point for clinical trials investigating blood-based rejuvenation, despite its limitations in testing the “young blood” hypothesis.

76. Account for Procedural Effects in Parabiosis Research

When evaluating parabiosis research, consider that the surgical procedure itself can shorten lifespan in rodents, and benefits observed might be influenced by these procedural impacts.

77. Acknowledge Senescent Cell Accumulation & Benefits

Recognize that cells exhibiting characteristics of senescence accumulate with age in various tissues, and their removal has shown some health benefits in animal models, warranting further investigation.

78. Consider Evidence for P16+ Cell Removal

Acknowledge that there is some evidence suggesting that the removal of P16 positive senescent cells can lead to improvements in health and longevity, despite ongoing debate and challenges in replication.

79. Be Precise with “Senescence” Terminology

Be mindful of the precise use of the term “senescence,” as its current association with specific cell types (senescent cells) has “stolen” its broader meaning of aging, leading to confusion.

80. Explore Anti-Aging for Disease Prevention

Consider the potential of anti-aging drugs to prevent age-related diseases like cancer, as evidenced by their ability to postpone cancer and reduce incidence rates in mice.

81. Beware Untested Longevity Products

Exercise caution regarding products marketed for longevity that lack scientific evidence or rigorous testing, as many are sold to “gullible customers” without proven efficacy.

82. Avoid Direct-to-Consumer Biological Age Tests

Do not rely on direct-to-consumer biological age tests for clinical practice or actionable recommendations due to unknown precision, accuracy, and the current “complete mess” of the industry.

83. Be Skeptical of Single Biological Age Numbers

Approach claims of a single “biological age” number with skepticism, as it oversimplifies a complex dataset of individual health metrics into a potentially unhelpful value.

84. Utilize Biomarkers for Objective Measurement

Employ biomarkers as easily measurable indicators to gain objective information about hard-to-measure biological states or behaviors, such as cotinine levels for smoking.

85. Insight 85

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