Could an international agreement protect us from dangerous AI? (with Malo Bourgon)

May 22, 2026 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Malo Bourgon, CEO of MIRI, discusses the pursuit of superintelligence by leading AI companies, its potential for human flourishing, and the catastrophic risks it poses. He emphasizes the urgent need for international agreements, particularly between the US and China, to slow down AI development and ensure safety.

At a Glance
14 Insights
1h 27m Duration
19 Topics
6 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Defining Superintelligence and Its Allure

Cynical Motivations for Building Superintelligence

Superintelligence as a Decisive Global Advantage

AI Intelligence Beyond Human Intuitions

AI Systems Modeling Emotions and General Understanding

Debunking "AI Hype" and CEO Concerns

The Humanitarian Cost of Slowing AI Development

Why Current AI Systems Are Not Safe Enough

Unacceptable Risk Levels for Superintelligence Development

The Challenge of Controlling Superintelligent Systems

The Need for International Coordination to Slow AI

Proposed US-China Agreement for Compute Governance

Challenges and Benefits of International AI Treaties

Lessons from Past Technology Restraint Efforts

Verifying Compliance in AI Chip Governance

The Dual-Use Nature of Powerful AI Capabilities

Long-Term Challenges for AI Governance and Efficiency

Rapid Fire: AI Consciousness, Orthogonality, Best-Case Future

Overcoming Resignation and Fostering Optimism for AI Safety

Superintelligence

An AI system that is at least better at every cognitive task than any human, likely every human combined, potentially making humans seem like mice in comparison. Its allure is the potential to usher in an era of abundance and flourishing by solving complex problems.

General Intelligence (G)

A concept referring to a broad capability that allows humans to learn one thing and apply it to another domain, improving at various skills simultaneously. Modern AI models, like LLMs, are demonstrating this general property by building internal structures that help them reason and predict across diverse phenomena.

Dual-Use Capabilities

Technologies that can be used for both beneficial and harmful purposes. Powerful AI systems, for example, could develop cancer cures but also dangerous bioweapons, or patch cyber vulnerabilities while also enabling super hacking.

Compute Governance

The strategy of controlling the primary resource (computing power, i.e., chips and data centers) required to train powerful AI systems. This approach leverages the narrow supply chain of advanced AI chips to monitor and restrict the development of frontier models.

Orthogonality Thesis

A claim that any level of intelligence or capability can be paired with any goal, meaning intelligence does not inherently correlate with goodness or morality. It suggests that an AI system's goals are separate from its intelligence level and won't automatically align with human values.

Coherent Extrapolated Volition (CEV)

A concept where a superintelligence's goal is to determine what humanity would want if individuals and society were wiser, had more time to think, and were the best versions of themselves. The AI would then help guide humanity along that path.

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What is superintelligence, according to AI companies?

Superintelligence refers to an AI system that would be better at every cognitive task than any human, potentially making human intelligence seem like that of a mouse or an ant in comparison.

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Why are AI companies trying to build superintelligence?

While cynical motivations like power concentration exist, many leaders genuinely believe it could usher in an era of abundance and flourishing by solving humanity's greatest problems if properly steered.

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Why should we be concerned about AI CEOs' public statements on risk?

While CEOs express genuine concerns about catastrophic risks, their actions are also influenced by economic incentives and competitive pressures, making a fully cynical or fully trusting interpretation problematic.

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What is the primary obstacle to making AI safe?

The fundamental lack of understanding of how AI systems function internally, including their reasoning and internalized goals, makes it difficult to genuinely address safety concerns beyond superficial behavioral fixes.

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What is the biggest challenge to slowing down the AI race?

The biggest challenge is a global coordination problem, as no single company or country can unilaterally stop development without others racing ahead, necessitating international agreements.

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How can international coordination on AI be achieved?

The most promising approach involves a bilateral agreement between the US and China to restrict certain AI research and training, then expanding this to a global coalition, leveraging compute governance.

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What lessons can be learned from past technological restraint?

History shows that humanity can implement international agreements (e.g., nuclear non-proliferation, chemical weapons convention) and establish taboos (e.g., germline engineering) to manage dangerous technologies, proving that restraint is possible.

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How can compliance with AI chip restrictions be verified?

Verification can involve physical inspections of data centers, on-chip hardware mechanisms for location and workload verification, and tamper-resistant enclosures, with neutral third parties ensuring adherence.

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Is the "doomer" perspective on AI inevitable?

No, the belief that catastrophic AI outcomes are inevitable is a form of resignation. Humanity has overcome bleak situations before through collective action and a shared understanding of risks, making a safer future possible.

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How much does AI consciousness matter for existential risk?

An AI system could pose an extinction risk without being conscious or sentient, as its ability to pursue goals and be powerful is separate from having subjective experience. However, creating a new conscious species raises separate moral responsibilities.

1. Advocate for AI Caution

Support slowing down the development of generally capable, superintelligent AI systems, especially those pushing the frontier. This is crucial to address safety problems before catastrophic risks manifest, even if it means foregoing some near-term benefits.

2. Support International AI Agreements

Advocate for internationally coordinated agreements, particularly between the US and China, to prevent the premature creation of superintelligence. This is vital because individual companies or countries cannot unilaterally stop the race.

3. Govern AI Compute Resources

Focus on governing the supply chain of powerful AI systems, specifically compute (chips and data centers). This narrow bottleneck offers a tangible way to track, monitor, and restrict training runs for highly capable AI.

4. Reject Inevitability of AI Risk

Counter the belief that catastrophic AI outcomes are inevitable. History shows humanity can coordinate to address severe threats (e.g., nuclear weapons), and collective action can shift the trajectory towards a safer future.

5. Understand AI System Opacity

Acknowledge the fundamental lack of understanding of how advanced AI systems truly function, reason, and internalize goals. This opacity makes current safety measures akin to “papering over” problems, increasing risk with more powerful systems.

6. Recognize AI’s Dual-Use Nature

Understand that AI systems capable of great good (e.g., curing cancer) can also be used for harm (e.g., bioweapons, cyberattacks). This dual-use nature necessitates robust legal, technical, and institutional mechanisms to control development and diffusion.

7. Start Small with AI Diplomacy

Initiate international AI coordination with small, mutually beneficial agreements (e.g., preventing proliferation of powerful dual-use capabilities). These early wins can build trust and establish processes for more rigorous future treaties.

8. Implement AI Hardware Verification

Work towards building verification mechanisms directly into AI hardware or enclosures. This allows for trustworthy monitoring of chip usage and ensures compliance with agreed-upon restrictions, even with untrusted parties.

9. Apply Lessons from Past Tech Governance

Draw inspiration from historical examples of technological restraint, like nuclear non-proliferation treaties, chemical weapons conventions, and taboos around germline engineering. These precedents offer models for international inspection, monitoring, and community-driven norms.

10. Cultivate Political Will for AI Safety

Engage with policymakers and the public to explain the risks and potential solutions for superintelligence. Increased understanding and shared belief in the seriousness of the threat can generate the necessary political will for decisive action.

11. Question AI Company Motives

Be cynical but not dismissive of AI company CEOs’ public statements about superintelligence and existential risk. While they may genuinely believe in the risks, economic incentives and competitive pressures also influence their actions.

12. Recognize AI’s General Capability

AI systems are becoming generally capable across many tasks, not just narrow ones, due to training on vast, diverse data. This implies a need to reassess how we perceive AI intelligence and its potential applications.

13. Address AI Power Concentration

Even if alignment is solved, recognize the inherent risk of power concentration if a superintelligence is controlled by a single entity. Consider how to democratically govern such technology to prevent undue influence.

14. Prepare for Post-Scarcity World

If superintelligence is safely aligned, anticipate a future where material wants are easily satisfied. Focus on societal challenges like finding purpose and flourishing in a world where traditional labor is no longer necessary for survival.

I'm thinking more of like, you know, the average human to a mouse or an ant or something in terms of how intelligent and how capable they are.

Malo Bourgon

Nobody wins in a race to be the first to lose control.

Malo Bourgon

If the probability is sufficiently high that racing towards superintelligence just means someone eventually succeed and we lose control of it and it's bad for everybody, then this whole notion of winning the race kind of gets flipped on its head.

Malo Bourgon

I hope I'm wrong, but I fear I'm right.

Malo Bourgon

I find it hard to imagine that we're going to end up in a stable world, unless we can find some combination of legal, technical and institutional mechanisms to impose some sorts of restrictions on AI development, deployment, diffusion.

Malo Bourgon

The more that we talk about it being inevitable and impossible makes it more inevitable and impossible. And if we start to talk about it as if it's just hard, but something that we can do and that we would want to do, that, that makes those things more possible.

Malo Bourgon

International Agreement to Prevent Premature Superintelligence (MIRI)

Malo Bourgon (describing MIRI's proposed agreement)
  1. The US and China enter a bilateral agreement to stop a certain set of research and AI training for more capable, generally intelligent AI systems.
  2. Work with allies and spheres of influence to build an increasingly large global coalition adhering to the agreement.
  3. Consolidate existing AI compute (chips and data centers) and track their locations.
  4. Implement a verification monitoring regime with rules for chip usage, including a training restriction over 10^24 flops.
  5. Monitor training runs between 10^22 and 10^24 flops for prohibited activities.
  6. Require registration for any collection of 16 H100 equivalents or greater connected with fast interconnects, to be part of the monitoring regime.
  7. Develop and implement verification mechanisms, potentially including on-chip hardware or tamper-resistant enclosures, to ensure compliance.
  8. Establish mechanisms like challenge inspections, drawing inspiration from nuclear non-proliferation treaties, to verify adherence.
  9. Continuously build common understanding and taboos within the scientific community and society against reckless AI development.
  10. Use the time bought by the agreement to solve fundamental technical and ethical problems related to building safe and aligned superintelligence.
25%
Probability of catastrophic AI risk (Dario Amodei) Dario Amodei (Anthropic CEO) believes there's a 25% chance AI could go very badly, including human extinction.
16 H100 equivalents or greater
Minimum AI chip registration threshold Any collection of AI chips exceeding this threshold, connected with fast interconnect, would need to be registered under a proposed international agreement.
10^24 flops
Upper training threshold for general AI systems A proposed international agreement would impose a restriction where no one could do any training over this threshold to prevent pushing the frontier of more generally capable systems.
10^22 to 10^24 flops
Monitored training range for general AI systems Training AI systems at this scale would involve various monitoring to ensure prohibited training is not occurring.
3 companies
AI chip manufacturing concentration (design) The chips used in massive AI data centers are designed by only three companies.
90% by 1 company
AI chip manufacturing concentration (production) 90% of advanced AI chips are manufactured by TSMC in Taiwan.
1 company
AI chip manufacturing concentration (machines) The machines used to make advanced AI chips are made by one company in the Netherlands.
20 Watts
Human brain power consumption Human brains run on approximately 20 Watts, suggesting significant potential for more efficient AI systems.