How To Get Out Of Your Head: Joseph Goldstein and Sam Harris on Nirvana, Non-Clinging, Non-Duality, and the Best Way to Meditate

Nov 19, 2025 1h 31m 11 insights

Which is the best path to freedom? <a href="https://www.dharma.org/teacher/joseph-goldstein/">Joseph Goldstein</a> is a cofounder of the <a href="https://www.dharma.org/">Insight Meditation Society</a> and the <a href="https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/">Barre Center for Buddhist Studies</a>, both in Barre, Massachusetts. He is the author of many books including, most recently, <a href="http://give.dharma.org/JGpoetry">Dreamscapes of the Mind</a>. <a href="https://www.samharris.org/">Sam Harris</a> is a neuroscientist, author, podcaster and the proprietor of the Waking Up app. In this episode we talk about: <ul> <li dir="ltr">What the term "non-duality" means — and why it matters to ordinary meditators.</li> <li dir="ltr">The multiple meanings of non-duality across Buddhist traditions (Theravāda, Mahāyāna, Vajrayāna).</li> <li dir="ltr">How different traditions (and even different teachers within them) define samsara and nirvana.</li> <li dir="ltr">The non-duality of the observer and observed — and how that insight can alleviate suffering.</li> <li dir="ltr">Whether understanding non-duality is practically relevant for reducing stress and emotional reactivity.</li> <li dir="ltr">The evolution of Buddhist teachings over time and how interpretations differ across countries.</li> <li dir="ltr">Sam's argument that the non-dual view can be directly experienced in everyday consciousness — and that realizing it ends unnecessary suffering.</li> <li dir="ltr">Joseph's emphasis on non-duality as one path among many toward the ultimate goal: the end of suffering.</li> <li dir="ltr">How metaphysics and direct experience intersect, and whether doctrinal differences are "self-confirming."</li> <li dir="ltr">The concept of "non-clinging" as the real heart of Buddhist practice — and how it relates to non-dual awareness.</li> </ul> Related Episodes: <ul> <li dir="ltr"> <a href="https://www.danharris.com/p/how-to-suffer-less-joseph-goldstein?r=4duxik&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false"> How To Suffer Less: Joseph Goldstein, Sam Harris, and Dan Harris on the Buddha's Eightfold Path</a> </li> </ul> Join Dan's online community <a href="http://www.danharris.com/">here</a> Follow Dan on social: <a href="https://bit.ly/3tGigG5">Instagram</a>, <a href="https://bit.ly/3FOA84J">TikTok</a> Subscribe to our <a href="https://bit.ly/3FybRzD">YouTube Channel</a> Additional Resources: <ul> <li dir="ltr"> For a 30-day free trial to the Waking Up app, go to <a href="http://wakingup.com/tenpercent">wakingup.com/tenpercent</a> </li> </ul> Tickets are now available for an intimate live event with Dan on November 23rd as part of the Troutbeck Luminary Series. Join the conversation, participate in a guided meditation, and ask your questions during the Q&A. Click <a href="https://troutbeck.com/culture/luminaries-series-conversation-meditation-with-dan-harris-2025/"> here</a> to buy your ticket! To advertise on the show, contact sales@advertisecast.com or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris Thanks to our

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Actionable Insights

1. Recognize Non-Dual Awareness Directly

Seek to recognize the ‘mind of the Buddha’ directly, which is available now and coincident with ordinary consciousness, by ceasing to do what obscures this way of seeing. This allows you to experience ordinary activities as an enlightened being would, without needing extensive preliminary work.

2. Practice Passive Voice Construction

Re-language your experiences to yourself in the passive voice (e.g., ‘sounds being known’ instead of ‘I am knowing a sound’). This helps dissolve the duality of separate subject and object, allowing you to experience things as ‘just things being known’ without a separate ‘I’.

3. Cultivate Non-Clinging for Freedom

Practice non-clinging, which means not desiring experience to be any other way than it is, by not pushing away unpleasantness or grasping at pleasantness. This practice is considered the core of the Dharma and what truly liberates the mind.

4. Experience ‘Just the Seen’

Practice experiencing phenomena directly, such as ‘in the seeing is just the seen’ or ‘in the hearing is just the heard,’ without a sense of a separate ‘me’ witnessing it. This radical evaporation of a sense of a doer or observer brings enormous freedom and reduces personal identification with experiences like anger.

5. Deepen Mindfulness Beyond Recognition

Understand that mindfulness goes beyond mere recognition of thoughts or emotions; it involves the mind being free of greed, hatred, and delusion in that moment. Strive to practice mindfulness in its fullness to achieve this deeper dimension of freedom.

6. Use Frustration for Deeper Inquiry

If you feel frustrated or that your mindfulness practice is insufficient, use that frustration as a key to further inquiry rather than ignoring it. This honesty can reveal deeper dualistic patterns and lead to a more profound understanding of freedom.

7. Develop Supportive Practice Qualities

Cultivate foundational qualities like mindfulness and concentration, as these are necessary supportive practices for stabilizing and remembering non-dual awareness in daily life. Without them, it can be extremely rare for people to remain in non-dual awareness amidst life’s busyness.

8. Gradually Cultivate Mindfulness

For most people, gradually and steadily cultivate mindfulness through practices like watching the breath and noticing thoughts. This gradual approach helps build the foundation necessary to eventually realize non-dual insight and the freedom it brings.

9. Practice Urge Surfing

Engage in ‘urge surfing,’ a meditation technique designed to help you be less attached to your moment-to-moment impulses. This practice helps reduce the power of urges to hijack your experience.

10. Explore Threads of Personal Interest

Instead of trying to grasp all concepts or determine right and wrong, pursue any thread of the discussion that genuinely interests you and seems helpful for relieving suffering. Explore these avenues to see where they lead in your personal practice.

11. Begin with Dualistic Vipassana

Begin your meditation practice with a straightforward, non-paradoxical approach like Vipassana, focusing on watching the breath and noticing thoughts. This method is an accessible starting point for those feeling they have a self and are suffering.