← 10% Happier with Dan Harris

George Saunders On: Getting Un-Stuck, Calming the Inner Critic, and Building Empathy Without Becoming a Chump

Jan 30, 2026 1h 6m 27 insights
<p dir="ltr">A conversation with celebrated author George Saunders about his new novel, Vigil, and what fiction can teach us about empathy, self-awareness, and mortality.</p> <p dir="ltr">George Saunders is the bestselling, award-winning author of Lincoln in the Bardo, Tenth of December, and many other books. His new novel, Vigil, tells the story of a woman who died in 1976 and has spent the decades since comforting the dying—until she encounters a former oil executive responsible for early climate change denial.</p> <p dir="ltr">In this conversation, Dan and George talk about:</p> <ul> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">Why George keeps writing about ghosts and the afterlife (hint: it's not just about mortality dread)</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">The lavish empathy at the heart of Vigil—and whether we should extend that empathy even to people doing civilizational damage</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">What George calls "warm metacognition"—the practice of dropping back out of your thought loops to examine what kind of goggles you're wearing</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">How fiction can turn your mind into a "reconsideration machine" (and why that matters in real life)</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">The difference between kindness and niceness</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">George's relationship with death anxiety, which he's had since childhood and which has only intensified with age</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">What George has learned about listening from teaching and hosting his Substack, Story Club</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">Why the older he gets, the more important it is to stretch himself creatively</p> </li> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr">His advice for dealing with stuckness (in writing and in life): curiosity over self-accusation</p> </li> </ul> <p dir="ltr">George's new novel Vigil is out January 27th from Random House. Check out his Substack, <a href="https://georgesaunders.substack.com/">Story Club</a>, where he discusses classic short stories with an incredibly thoughtful community.</p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p dir="ltr">Related Episodes:</p> <ul> <li dir="ltr"> <p dir="ltr"><a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/10-happier-with-dan-harris/id1087147821?i=1000582335529"> George Saunders on "Holy Befuddlement" and How to Be Less of a "Turd"</a></p> </li> </ul> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p dir="ltr">Get the 10% with Dan Harris app <a href="https://app.danharris.com/membership">here</a></p> <p dir="ltr">Sign up for Dan's free newsletter <a href="http://www.danharris.com/">here</a></p> <p dir="ltr">Follow Dan on social: <a href="https://bit.ly/3tGigG5">Instagram</a>, <a href="https://bit.ly/3FOA84J">TikTok</a></p> <p dir="ltr">Subscribe to our <a href="https://bit.ly/3FybRzD">YouTube Channel</a></p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p dir="ltr">To advertise on the show, contact sales@advertisecast.com or visit <a href="https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris">https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris</a></p> <p> </p>
Actionable Insights

1. Empathy as Strategic Tool

Practice empathy as an elaborate thought experiment to understand your opponents’ sorrows. This makes you a more effective actor in pushing back against negative movements, rather than eroding your edge.

2. Cultivate Reconsideration Machine Mind

Train your mind to be a ‘reconsideration machine’ by slowing down judgment and seeking more information. This allows your desire to judge to dissipate, leading to deeper understanding.

3. Practice Warm Metacognition

Develop a habit of ‘warm metacognition’ by observing your mental state and biases (e.g., mood, defensiveness) in any situation. This allows you to quiet overthinking and access more objective data from the world.

4. Approach Problems with Curiosity

When facing stuckness or challenges, approach the situation with quiet curiosity rather than self-accusation or overthinking. Ask ‘what’s happening here?’ to foster openness to solutions and minimize anxiety.

5. Embrace Obstructions for Growth

View the difficulties, doubts, and frustrations encountered in your work or life as opportunities for growth and stretching. The harder the problem, the greater the potential for self-expansion and finding new abilities.

6. Avoid Delusional Reality Relation

Recognize that existing in a delusional relation to reality leads to ongoing suffering in every minute. Strive for an accurate understanding of reality to alleviate this suffering and improve your moment-to-moment experience.

7. Prioritize Meditation Practice

Engage in meditation to reduce clinging to yourself and lessen the fear of death. Reorient your life to pay more attention to practices that foster inner peace and alter your relationship with mortality.

8. Challenge with Audacious Projects

As you get older, take on audacious or ‘impossible’ projects that push your abilities and force you into new modes of thinking. This combats stagnation, affirms vitality, and helps explore unexplored aspects of yourself.

9. Imagine Beloved Audience

When creating or communicating, imagine your audience as a beloved, intelligent friend whom you cannot easily fool. This elevates your intention and compels you to deliver your best, most sincere work.

10. Avoid Communication ‘Flooding’

In conversations, avoid ‘flooding’ people with too much information, as they cannot hear it effectively. Instead, offer judicious, small ‘judo-like chunks’ of information to keep them in their prefrontal cortex for better understanding.

11. Practice Mental Leaning Back

In conversations, make a slight mental adjustment to ’lean back’ and listen more. This allows others to speak fully, leading to perfect moments for light, judo-like suggestions that will be heard.

12. Judge Less, Praise with Reserve

Endeavor to judge others less harshly and praise with more reserve, recognizing that innate qualities and even the ability to work hard are not chosen. This fosters a more compassionate and understanding worldview.

13. Seek Internal Truth, Acknowledge Wrongdoing

Even when external actions are no longer possible, seek internal truth by acknowledging wrongdoing and facing it directly. This internal shift can be a form of salvation, freeing you from a denial mindset.

14. Pay Attention to Everything

Live with the awareness that everything matters, suffering is real, and death is imminent. Pay attention to every moment as if it were your last on earth to deepen your visceral belief in life’s urgency.

15. Engage with Art for Tenderness

Use art, such as reading fiction, as a means to slow things down and prepare yourself for tenderness. This practice can subtly reveal your mind’s usual habits and cultivate compassion.

16. Let Work Guide Self-Expansion

Allow your creative work or projects to guide you, teaching you what they want you to do rather than rigidly adhering to a preconceived approach. This process can reveal new things about yourself and serve as a self-expansion device.

17. Seek Positive, Courteous Communities

Actively seek out and engage with communities that foster positive, smart, and courteous communication. Learning from such environments can counteract despair about human interaction.

18. Aim for Heartfelt Communication

In real life, aim for ‘boring, heartfelt communication’ that prioritizes clear understanding and genuine connection over dramatic or distorted exchanges. This makes life dissimilar from good fiction, where dialogue often zings past each other.

19. Differentiate Kindness from Niceness

Understand the distinction between kindness and niceness in your actions. True kindness may sometimes involve ‘wrathful compassion’ or stern action to prevent harm, rather than merely being pleasant.

20. Use Fiction for Mental Habits

Engage with fiction as a ’lightweight training’ to slow down and observe your mind’s usual habits, such as the proclivity for facile judgment. This helps you become aware of your internal processes.

21. Approach Creative Work with Joy

When starting creative projects, aim for a sense of ‘anticipatory frolic’ and fun, scanning for topics that genuinely light you up. This approach minimizes anxiety and increases freshness and productivity.

22. Persist Through Obstructions

When faced with difficult obstructions in your work or life, commit to coming back day after day and ‘hitting your head against the obstruction.’ Persistence is key to eventually overcoming challenges.

23. Reorient Life for Inner Peace

Make a conscious effort to slightly reorient your life to prioritize activities and practices that lead to more inner peace. This involves paying more attention to what truly nurtures your well-being.

24. Explore Unexplored Self Quadrants

Actively seek to find and explore ‘unexplored quadrants’ of yourself. Recognize that consciousness is unlimited, but habits can pen it in, and rigorous effort can break down these walls.

25. Strive for Sincerity and Best Effort

Ensure that any work you put out reflects your best effort and sincere intention. This commitment ensures that your work communicates genuine engagement and care to others.

26. Be Alert to Actions’ Consequences

Cultivate an awareness that the ‘punishment and reward’ of your actions and mind states are being collected in every instant. This immediate feedback loop affects the quality of your present moment.

27. Embrace Life’s Pleasures Urgently

View life as an amazing party with an unknown departure time, which should make you want to submerge yourself into its pleasures with urgency. This perspective can heighten appreciation for the present.